(no subject)

[mamadeb]

Three hours. She just spent three hours in my kitchen. Which is gorgeous now.

And she's moved to my bathroom now.

In terms of housekeeping - I lose.

ETA: Bathroom is now glowing. And, yeah. I win. And she wins because I paid her for her time and effort. I don't need to see dirt.

Comments

[ailsaek.livejournal.com]

Nuh-uh. You win. You have a gorgeous kitchen now.

[cellio]

Yes. You are able to have someone else do that work for you and you get the benefits; how is that losing?

[mamadeb.livejournal.com]

It didn't look so bad before!

What was I not seeing?

[cellio]

Maybe you're being affected by the shine? I mean, when I clean my kitchen I focus on dirt, not appearance, so doing an extra buffing pass on the stovetop, say, to make it sparkle, just wouldn't occur to me. That doesn't mean it's dirty, but if someone does do that it produces a visible change.

Could it be stuff like that?

[otherdeb.livejournal.com]

What Ailsa said. BTW, we should do lunch one day. It's been too darned long. And yes, Marc emailed me re the housefilk, and I have set aside the time, but still......lunch. Maybe with knitting and/or spinning.

[mamadeb.livejournal.com]

We'll have to figure out when. The way my schedule is, that'll mean...late August.

[estherchaya.livejournal.com]

Nope. You win.

And after she gets past these first few visits, it will all be maintenance.

[mamadeb.livejournal.com]

It...I thought it was clean, you know?

[estherchaya.livejournal.com]

And now you know it can be better. And that's okay. She spends her time learning how to make things cleaner... she practices finding dirt where others don't think to look. You don't. Worry not.

[kressel.livejournal.com]

I'm sure you beat her as a writer, and unfortunately, if this is how she earns her living, she's probably not that smart, or she just hasn't learned English very well yet.

My lady didn't show up again. I think she must have found a higher paying job.

[mamadeb.livejournal.com]

I know. I know all of that.

It's just. She cleaned things I didn't think were dirty except. They were.

I really don't see this stuff.

[estherchaya.livejournal.com]

Really, that's okay. Because they're going to be clean now. Because she's going to keep coming back, and you're going to maintain as best you can between visits. And you're taking note of some of the things she discovered were dirty that you didn't realize and you'll pay attention to those places (even if only in the back of your mind) in the future.

[ataniell93.livejournal.com]

I don't either, and I just want you to know...

As soon as I get my finances straightened out, this is going on my list of things to do. Because I know things are dirty in my house, and I also know that there are things I think are clean that aren't.

Your experience has convinced me that I need help. At the very least I need someone to come in and *teach* me some things, but I'm not sure I'd ever be good at it. I live in my own little world. It sort of coincides with reality here and there, but not when it comes to this stuff.

[mamadeb.livejournal.com]

I think we're on the same planet.

And it's worth it all to us. Last night, my husband came home after a horrendous commute and when we sat down to dinner in a clean dining room, next to a sparkling kitchen he *relaxed*. "The house is so calm without all that visual noise."

And the living room and dining room? Only needed a pickup that *we* did, and a vacuuming.

Maybe we can learn.

[miriam-heddy.livejournal.com]

People go into domestic work for all sort of reasons, including a certain flexibility to the job that often allows women (and it is, primarily, women) to care for their children. And there are many reasons people can't get a "better" job beyond intelligence and literacy. Many smart women who speak fluent English are still working in service industry jobs because they have little training in technology, which is often necessary for office work of the sort that Deb does. And for older women who don't have computer skills or office work experience, it can be doubly hard to find an employer willing to take a chance on them.

The fact of the matter is, the woman Deb hired knows more about housekeeping than Deb does, and is more organized, more thorough, and has a better eye for and attention to detail. Kudos to her for a job well done!

It's sometimes hard to admit that we've failed at something like housekeeping, and I understand why Deb may feel a little weird about that realization, but there's no need for any of her friends to diminish the lives and skills and abilities of women who clean houses in order to elevate Deb's sense of her own accomplishments.

[mamadeb.livejournal.com]

As it happens, she does not speak fluent English. As it also happens, she cleans with great skill and knowledge, and I pay her more than she asks because she has this skill.

It's a shame that something we all value so much can be gotten for relatively little because it's assumed that it can otherwise be done for "free" - that is, the time and labor of the homeowner and because it's work traditionally done by women, or because it was done by those deemed of a lower class.

It's skilled work. It's time consuming and labor intensive, and it's never done. The worker gets a momentary feeling of accomplishment and then it has to be done all over again. However, just as I enjoy the process of cooking, I know there are people (of both sexes) who enjoy the process, or who like knowing that they are making something neat and clean and organized. I can understand that, and I believe this woman is one of those - she had every sign of enjoying the challenge I gave her.

And I'm doing something similar when I sit at my desk - the same round of chores over and over again, and it's not physical and it's much less challenging. And it, too, is traditionally women's work.

[miriam-heddy.livejournal.com]

Just wanted to say--and your probably know this--that I wasn't quibbling with you, Deb, or anything you said, but with that one comment I replied to, which I found more than a bit offensive. The presumption that domestic workers aren't smart or fluent (and that if they were they'd get better jobs) is both simplistic and offensive, and ignores the complexities of women's places in the workforce, and the pressures that keep so many women in low-paying, physically demanding, and underappreciated "service" work.

And you and I are in complete agreement with the de-valuation of much of what's considered "women's work." And also, that I grew up in a middle-class household in which my mother hired someone to come in and help her once a month, and that my own housekeeping skills are remarkably minimal, but I can't actually afford having anyone in, so my husband ends up being the primary "cleaning lady" (and I use that term with full irony).

Writing and Housework

[kressel.livejournal.com]

As I've said before, I'm not a terrific housekeeper. A few years ago, when I was much much more prolific in my writing than I am now, I downright neglected my housework, and it showed terribly. I really had to get myself in balance, and the book Becoming A Writer by Dorothea Brande is what did it.

It's a very psychological book. Brande divides the writer's mind into two main tools, unconscious and conscious, or imagination and inner editor if you prefer. Much of the book is about balancing those two forces, but she also suggested something she called a wordless vacation.

Our minds, Brande states, work in language. So when you're at a stuck place in your writing, a good way to generate ideas is to take a wordless vacation. Take up some wordless hobby, like gardening, and throw yourself into it. While you're doing it, you shouldn't talk on the phone or listen to talk radio. You shouldn't even listen to music with lyrics. Once you have isolated yourself into this wordless state, your own mind will fill the gap, and voila! Now you know where to take your story next.

When I first read that I thought, "Oh, like I have time to take up a new hobby," but then I realized that cooking and cleaning are wordless activities I have to do every day. Since then, some of my best ideas have come to me while chopping vegetables or doing dishes. And it has also given me incentive to clean when it was previously lacking.

Of course, I think you should still keep your cleaning lady. But while you're de-cluttering, think your own thoughts.

[mamadeb.livejournal.com]

You can do that? My goodness.

When I chop vegetables, I plot stories or free associate about domestic history or plan what else I'm going to do - and I can't spare attention from the chopping much because knives=sharp. (Hands=many, many tiny knife and burn scars. I call them occupational hazards.) Or where I got the idea for this meal or...my goodness, endless things. Social history is a big one.

As for decluttering - it's constant thought. "Do we keep this or not? Where does it go if we keep it?"

If I gardened, I'd talk to the plants if nothing else. The hardest thing to do at night is turn the words off.

[kressel.livejournal.com]

there's no need for any of her friends to diminish the lives and skills and abilities of women who clean houses in order to elevate Deb's sense of her own accomplishments.

You're right. I'll try to be more careful about my judgments.

[rosehiptea.livejournal.com]

I'm sorry if I responded harshly to you also. ._.

[kressel.livejournal.com]

Thank you very much for saying so. BTW, I LOVE your Harriet the Spy icon. What a lesson she is in how careful we have to be in what we write!

[rosehiptea.livejournal.com]

I take great exception to that remark. I just got a job that involves cleaning a home for the mentally disabled and I wouldn't say I'm "not that smart." (I have a college degree. Contrary to popular belief, it's not an employable skill by itself.) I also wouldn't say that about any of the housekeepers I had back when I was married.

Just because someone has a job cleaning doesn't mean they aren't intelligent.

[mamadeb.livejournal.com]

Good for you.

Although, to give Kressel some slack - I do understand what she was saying. And she assumed her own cleaning person got a better job - maybe better paying, maybe more in line with her preferences. I don't know.

[kressel.livejournal.com]

My lady doesn't speak a word of English. I imagine she got a better-paying cleaning job, or perhaps her husband got a better job and she's now able to stay home with her kids.

[kressel.livejournal.com]

Yes, I know intelligent people can clean. For the record, I earned extra money by cleaning when I was a student in Israel. But the main reason I did it was because my Hebrew was so limited, I couldn't find anything else.

[rosehiptea.livejournal.com]

My point was not that intelligent people can clean. My point was that writing off someone as either unintelligent or at beset unable to speak English because they clean houses for a living is very distasteful to me, and not only because of myself. I don't think encouraging people to feel an air of superiority over their housekeepers is a nice or good thing to do.

[darthfox.livejournal.com]

fortunately, it's not a contest. :-)

[redaxe.livejournal.com]

What everyone else is saying: "This is a closed track with a professional driver. Do not try this at home." That's why there ARE professionals at various things; if there weren't, and we were all generalists with superior ability, well...

I wish we could afford to bring someone in. But we're lightyears even from that point. So.

[ailsaek.livejournal.com]

Birthday present? That's what I'm pushing for.

Gotta love professionals. :)

[redaxe.livejournal.com]

Maybe (he says, considering that both adults in the household were born last few days of February). By that time, we may have cleaned up to the point where a cleaning person will do us good. It would help if I could guess just who might give us that gift (parents -- I have none left ("I'm a NORPHAN!" :-D, M's mom really can't -- are Right Out).

[dphearson.livejournal.com]

Not a contest.

The lceaner is traine dto clean things in a specific manner; you are ot. But now you can see what needs to be done, and maintain your home.

[majilique.livejournal.com]

ooo send her my way.

[sekhmets-song.livejournal.com]

It's a win-win, I think. She is a professional and therefore will clean know how to clean things better and more efficiently than you. And, it is her job to make it clean for you. So, you win in that you don't have to do that stuff anymore. She wins in that you pay her, appreciate what a good job she is doing (there are people who wouldn't even notice), and will undoubtedly give her a good job referral, if she were ever to need it, which will allow her to continue to earn a living this way. See, winners all around!

[mamadeb.livejournal.com]

You'd have to be blind not to notice the difference.

However, I can see people not *saying* so. I don't understand those people. When a job is done well, it deserves praise. Money is good; money is important. But praise is also important. When I go to a restaurant and I enjoy the food, I make a point of saying so. The cook will not get any more money out of it, but that doesn't matter.

[rosehiptea.livejournal.com]

I think having a housekeeper was a great decision for you.

But believe me, these things can be learned, also. I used to be terrible at housekeeping, really terrible, to the point that I got cited by the apartment manager, but I do pretty well now on my own.

[mamadeb.livejournal.com]

I thought I could do decently. The house isn't this clean for Passover.

[rosehiptea.livejournal.com]

That's exactly how I used to feel with my housekeeper, so I definitely know what you mean. But it does help to have it clean, to be able to keep it that way.