Marriage

[mamadeb]

Marriage in the USA is a civil matter, not a religious one. For reasons of tradition, we empower religious officicants to enact marriages, but those marriages do not exist legally unless a marriage license is also issued. (Any one with multiple spouses knows this. For that matter, I know of Orthodox Jewish couples who chose not to have marriage licences. They are married halachically, but the state doesn't recognize it.) We also empower secular officials (judges, justices, county clerks) to do the same. There is no set ceremony (the Jewish ceremony does not resemble any Christian ceremony, for example - no vows are made, no kisses are exchanged.)

Because of this, and because no state can possibly require a religion to perform a marriage against its own tenets, I really don't see how any church or set of beliefs should have any bearing on who should or should not get married other than under their own auspices. I've said this before - Judaism, for example, forbids a marriage between a man and his ex-wife's sister (or his wife's sister, for that matter) in his ex-wife's lifetime. (Jacob married his wives before the Torah was given.) No Orthodox rabbi would perform this marriage. However, such a couple is and should be perfectly permitted to marry civilly. No synagogue has lost any tax-exempt status or been fined because of this.

If LDS or Orthodox Judaism or Catholicism or whoever do not want to perform gay marriages, this is their right and their privilege, and it would be wrong to require them to do so. But that has nothing to do with equality before the law. The right and penalities of marriage should be available to all consenting parties - anything else denies the equality of all adult Americans.

Comments

[aethereal-girl.livejournal.com]

One of the seven laws forbids "giluy arayot," which is generally interpreted to include male homosexual sex as well as adultery and incest.

The seven laws don't have anything to say about homosexual marriage, as far as I know, simply because it's not seen as a halachic possibility.

So logically, Orthodox Jews should encourage homosexuals to marry. It'll mean a lot less homosexual sex. :)

[llennhoff.livejournal.com]

Your joke actually hits on the real issue, to my mind. Will allowing same sex marriages cause the number of violations of "giluy arayot" to increase or not?

My gut says it (secondarily after the rise in the acceptance of the idea of people committing homosexual acts) would. I think there are plenty of potentially bisexual people that never seriously considered getting involved with someone of their own gender. As homosexuality becomes a more and more legitimate lifestyle choice, more of these people will happen to fall in love with someone of their gender, and so the number of arayot will increase.

[mamadeb.livejournal.com]

I think that's possible, but there are advantages to mixed-sex marriages beyond social acceptance - the world is still geared more that and it's a lot easier to have children (well, supposedly.)

I think we're going to see marriage go through a lot of changes in the next few years, but I also think that opposite-sex monogamy will still stay in the vast majority.

[aethereal-girl.livejournal.com]

Actually, I tend to agree with you (although when we're talking about limiting people's freedoms, it would be nice to have hard data rather than just gut feelings.) Bisexuals and the murky origins of sexual preference aside, it seems to me that to the extent that the availability of marriage encourages homosexuals to think in terms of long-term, stable relationships, it would translate into more sex for them, not less. All joking aside, one tends to have more sex when one doesn't have to worry about where one's next partner is coming from; this much I believe is supported by scientific studies, although I can't put my hand on one at the moment.

On the other hand, a climate of intolerance of homosexuals, towards which a lack of available homosexual marriage may contribute, often leads to violence and even murder. Which are also forbidden by the seven laws. So that has to factor into your calculations as well.

[dreamalynn.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure how marriage can increase the amount of sex that people are having overall. I think, from the attitudes that I've heard over the years from my gay friends and gay-leaning bi friends, that the fact that they weren't "settle down and get married' people (because they couldn't be) is what encouraged them to therefore embrace just the opposite tack and go for a very hedonistic and promiscuous lifestyle, well beyond the ages/phases of life when most heterosexuals have had enough of that and start thinking about family and kids and all of that.

It's hypothesis on my part, but it seems that if more gay/gay-leaning people have the idea that nuclear family life is an option, activities that run counter to those goals, like promiscuity, would decrease. That's based, admittedly, on the idea that most of us are wired to want to have a primary relationship, if not outright monogamy, and the "guarantee" of the support/acceptance/affection that goes along.

So an increase of sex within a sole relationship, perhaps. A decrease in number of sex partners overall? That would go hand in hand. Is that an arguable good? I don't know.

[ataniell93.livejournal.com]

Doesn't that depend upon whether you define "giluy arayot" as male homosexual sex or not? I mean, okay here goes:

I know a rabbi that is of the opinion it's male-male anal sex that's the forbidden act, not any of the other things two men might do if they were married.

I also know of rabbis (Greenberg, Trembling before G-d I think it is) who define the forbidden act as male-male rape, specifically because this was a pagan practise.

In either case, this doesn't necessarily mean, pardon my french, that oral sex would be a problem, or that lesbian sex of any kind is a problem. Now, there are certainly rabbis and authorities who believe that these things are violations of the Noachide laws, but I have always regarded this one of the seven laws as forbidding sex that is a violation of someone else's rights (adultery, incest, etc).

[kmelion.livejournal.com]

And what about the man's prohibition of 'wasting seed'?

[sethg]

One of the seven laws forbids "giluy arayot," which is generally interpreted to include male homosexual sex as well as adultery and incest.

Right, so perhaps Orthodox Jews who want to promote civil enforcement of the Noachide laws should start by campaigning to reintroduce criminal penalties for adultery. (According to Maimonides, adultery is a capital offense in Noachide law, right?)

As a liberal frummie, my emotions around this issue are complicated, and one of the complicating factors is disgust at Christian conservatives who seem eager to blame all the ills of the world on TEH GAY.

[llennhoff.livejournal.com]

As I stated above, criminalizing adultery and blasphemy are political non-starters. But for another decade or so we can, if we choose, assist in stopping gay marriage. The question is are we obligated to do so if we have the ability?