*That* Post

[mamadeb]

This one, here.

Yeah, about how wonderful it would be if men could ask women if they can grope them in public.

(Oh, later, he says that more women than men participated in the groping as well as the being groped, and that there was reciprocity available (to a degree), but the original post? Makes no mention of either of those. Just how healing it is for a guy to finally be allowed to grope a random woman's breast, just as he couldn't do in high school!)

This was a small event - other people attending the same convention had no idea it was going on.

And it makes me cringe. Please note: I have few worries that any stranger is going to come to me to ask to fondle my breasts. There's the modesty thing. And the apple-like figure. And the fact that I'm middle-aged. I'm a billboard for "Don't touch." (And yet, I've been randomly hugged, unasked, at conventions. Not a pleasant experience.)

But that's not important - a young woman with large breasts who chooses to wear revealing clothing still has the right to not be pressured into this situation. And there will be pressure. Social pressure is one of the strongest things we have - it's what keeps consumerism going. And women are pressured to be compliant, too. Or you're a prude. Or a bad sport.

In this case, there seemed to be no problems - it was small and self-selecting and well-policed. Women who took part spoke up in favor. Even so, he's focused on the assets, not the person. And there seemed to be women coming to him for validation that their breasts were good enough.

If this sort of thing took place in a home or a private party with the rules spelled out loudly everywhere, I would not have the slightest problems with it. It still feels like objectification, but in a private party, presumably that would be their choice. I'd also hope there would be full reciprocity involved.

What worries me, though, is not *just* the potential triggers or the fact that it's inherently unequal. It's the potential for abuse - yes, these were, apparently, tiny and well-controlled events.

It's that theferrett has a huge following, and there will be people who see this and think, "cool!" and try to make them larger events at conventions - too large to be ignored. It's out. It can't be put back.

And this will make some conventions very hostile places for many women. And it will also open those conventions up to litigation. And that worries me even more than that it exists at all.

Comments

[tpau]

yeah... just... yeah

[mamadeb.livejournal.com]

It reads like a junior high school boy's wet dream, doesn't it?

Boobies! For the asking!

[blueraccoon.livejournal.com]

What upsets me about the situation he was in, regardless of whether it was self-selected or not, is that women were coming to him and his friends for validation about their breasts.

By the end of the evening, women were coming up to us. "My breasts," they asked shyly, having heard about the project. "Are they... are they good enough to be touched?"

Just. No.

[mamadeb.livejournal.com]

Exactly.

That's not sexually freeing. That's digging the hole deeper.

[ataniell93.livejournal.com]

I know. I read that and I wanted to give her a copy of "Outside Inside". Yes. You are good enough. So good that you should save that for someone who actually CARES. @_@;;;;

[madripoor-rose.livejournal.com]

I am just sick that I ever read and recc'd his Home on the Strange webcomic now. Disgusting sexist pig.

[mamadeb.livejournal.com]

I've read what I consider his column, but I never got into his webcomic.

[smallship1.livejournal.com]

I see your point, and agree to an extent. I also agree to an extent with another of my LJ friends who is very much in favour.

I'd like to link to your post and to hers, and invite debate on this in mine, if you are both agreeable.

[mamadeb.livejournal.com]

I have no problem with this.

[smallship1.livejournal.com]

Here (http://smallship1.livejournal.com/250053.html) is the link.

[roadnotes.livejournal.com]

I've been going back and forth in feelings about it, and writing about them in various places (the_red_shoes made a post yesterday, and most of my comments are there, I think). In certain contexts, I can see where it would be fun and friendly, but I can far too easily envision too much pressure being placed on women to participate, and the whining...

...okay. There have always been people in fandom, mostly clueless guys, who have never quite been able to get past the "She hugged him, and her, and him, and him, and him -- so I can claim a hug, too." What happens when one of those guys asks, "Can I touch your breasts?" and someone says no -- or when the third woman says no to him? Or when the fifth woman does, and they're alone in a hallway?

I know, this sounds cynical, and like I have no faith in most men, but... well, my experience has been that there are some who are not good at taking no for an answer. Plus the peer pressure on younger women.

In another world, perhaps. But not here, not now. And as one person commented, it could get large and messy, with people hauling out videocameras, and pressuring underage women, and, and, and... I want to say that it sounds good, but I remember how much pressure I was under, as a cute-in-some-ways twenty-something with boundary issues, when I first got into fandom. Heck, I had boundary issues into my thirties.

[roadnotes.livejournal.com]

Also, as other people pointed out again, even in his post, he went from politer language ("you can touch my breasts" or something along those lines) to "boobs" and "groping," and that squicks me.

[mamadeb.livejournal.com]

Yes. It became sexualized (in an infantile way) very quickly.

[mamadeb.livejournal.com]

I do agree. I think that in the right contexts - a properly policed private space, for example - it could be a good thing for some people. The question would then be expected and therefore not an attack.

[cluegirl.livejournal.com]

I was, due to childhood abuse, one of those girls who developed early, and didn't stop developing until the proportions got a bit ridiculous, so since I have been doing Renfaires and Cons for the last twenty or so years, I've got rather used to being a bit of a wank focus in certain situations. I've learned not to let it bother me, because I really can't make someone not think something in the privacy of their own underwear, however there is, and always has been, a line. Disrespect is WAY over that line, and walking up to me and asking to fondle me is nothing less than flagrant and aggressive disrespect. And like the child-of-a-trucker I am, my response to disrespect is crude, insulting, and laced with violence.

"Wow, I'd really like to touch your breasts."

"Isn't that funny! Because the instant I saw you, I felt I really wanted to break your nose with my elbow, then smother you under a rug! Shall I go first then?"

[miriam-heddy.livejournal.com]

You should always go first.

[mamadeb.livejournal.com]

Nods. Reciprocity is a good thing.

[farmleaf.livejournal.com]

I got here via eleri 's journal via smallship1 's journal and I would like to say that THIS is exactly what I've been trying to get across in the first journal up there. If someone wants to touch my breasts, I get the right to reciprocate by racking their balls, because I find racking balls to be OH so beautiful (well, not really but you get my point). To me, having come from a background of childhood physical and sexual abuse, being touched by people I do not know (and being asked to be touched by them as well) is a fairly unpleasant experience. I've had friends get offended because they caught me off guard in a spontaneous hug, which caused me to stiffen and back up abruptly. *shrug* I guess I'm not sex positive free love let it all hang out because I feel there should be a few things between impulse and deed, most of which are things such as "good taste" and "decent manners".

[mecurtin.livejournal.com]

I love the way you've tagged this. I shall borrow.

[mamadeb.livejournal.com]

Be my guest.

[ailsaek.livejournal.com]

I dunno. I think mainly I'm sad at how this turned out. Cos it looks to me like some dumb fun between friends that got away from itself and got stupid.

[mamadeb.livejournal.com]

If he'd spoken about it in an adult way and as something that might be fun in private, instead of a manifesto for the world, yes.

Still squicks *me*, but I squick at a lot of things.

[verilyverity.livejournal.com]

Wow. That guy is an ass. On the up side, I love the tag.

[mamadeb.livejournal.com]

Thank you!

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I just...maybe I still just don't get whatever this thing was, but I found myself reading the linked post and thinking, "Oh, shut up." Not an intelligent response, I know. But I I just don't buy that anybody really needed or got all that much out of this incredible experience of getting to rub some woman's breasts or get your own touched. Why the huge exaltation and explanation of how it didn't degenerate into anybody trying to take off somebody's bra or suck on their nipple? If somebody started a thing about "Can I touch your hair?" I'd think it was just as ridiculous.

It just does sound like something rather silly cloaked in mumbo jumbo about being progressive and daring. And yeah, women coming up and asking if their breasts were good enough? Of course they did! Sure the women who were originally involved were all strong and confident and whatever. It's no surprise it filtered down to girls looking for validation and whatever.

It just seemed like a silly moment of mild thrill that on its own can't support half the stuff read into it. But like I said, maybe I'm just not getting it.

[mamadeb.livejournal.com]

It's the idea that boobs should be open domain. Or something.

[roadnotes.livejournal.com]

I can't remember where the posts are, but at least two people reworded some/all of the article to be about touching black people's hair, complete with the other blacks coming up shyly to ask "is my hair ... good enough to be touched?" I've got at least one of them tagged in my memories. But the analogy is excellent, I think, as it becomes clear that, at least from theferrett's writing, there's a subtext of heterosexual white male privilege and approval in the whole episode.

I do think that a lot of the issue is that it was written about badly, and the idea of making it a Project and moving it out of the realm of friends and friendly acquaintances is a Seriously Bad Idea.

[sdelmonte]

This guy is serious?

I can't really address this without thinking like an Orthodox Jew who is increasingly out of step with the rest of the world, but...

Ick. Seriously, ick.

[bercilakslady.livejournal.com]

There's only ick here, trust me.

[mamadeb.livejournal.com]

Yes. He's serious.

And you're not alone in this. Jonathan's response was about the same as yours, and there are a number of other people - people neither Jewish nor Orthodox nor, so far as I can tell, out of step - who reacted the same way.

[http://users.livejournal.com/_darkvictory/]

I'm an extremely liberal Protestant, and I had the exact same response.

[roadnotes.livejournal.com]

You're not that far out of step with the rest of the world. I'm a lapsed neopagan kinkster, and I'm increasingly thinking it's a bad idea. The default should be to respect people's space and bodies, regardless of what they're wearing, or what gender they are or present themselves as.

Fannish Girls Gone Wild!

[jonbaker.livejournal.com]

That's what it sounds like to me - go up to a buncha suggestible women (drunk, or in a fannish context with its deliberately different code of sexual ethics) and ask to touch or see their breasts.

In fact, reading an LA Times profile of Joe Francis (http://www.latimes.com/features/magazine/west/la-tm-gonewild32aug06,0,2664370.story), the brains (?) behind the Girls Gone Wild videos, some of his excuses sound just like the stuff Ferrett and his pals are saying. Francis gets signed waivers from every one of the women who "perform" on his tapes, and pays them with a T-shirt or panties or a hat. Ferrett doesn't even do that much, just gains LJ fame for being a prevert.

I see the same crap about "empowerment" and the same approach to women in a situation he thinks is more amenable to this kind of behavior than, say, random people passing the public library.

[rynia.livejournal.com]

Thank you, thank you, thank you. Your response is one of my favorites so far, for its rationality and coherency, as well as its logic. I hope you don't mind that I've linked it in my post on the subject.

[mamadeb.livejournal.com]

I'm honored.

[randomalia.livejournal.com]

I can only agree with you. He may have some women agreeing with him, but none who came up with the idea. His ignorance in even thinking the question is ok!

[mamadeb.livejournal.com]

There are people amazed that it's even wrong to ask that of total strangers. That boggles me.

[redaxe.livejournal.com]

It sounds like something that might have been relatively harmless and fun thirty years ago, when fandom was much smaller and for the most part, people knew each other or were at one remove via FOAF relationships.

But, as with the difference between a small village and a metropolis, there are behaviors that don't translate well, and this is, to me, clearly one.

I won't say that I don't see the attraction of what he proposes, but I'm not on the end of the behavior that's likely to be hurt. Therefore, survey says, if you're going to act this way, just keep your hands in your pockets and your mouth shut and try to pass for civilized.

[mamadeb.livejournal.com]

It would probably be harmless and fun today, in the right context - in which everyone knows that the question can be answered "no" without penalty, and, if yes, would stop at the immediate request of the one being touched.

And that there was true reciprocity.

[redaxe.livejournal.com]

That's why I mention the small village model; there's social pressure when everyone knows everyone that keeps behavior more or less in line. (That same pressure can also be stifling, but in a situation like this, where the intention is to deliberately get past that sort of stifle, it might not be quite so much a problem.) In a big city -- or a group such as fandom is now, with a lot of folks who don't know each other and won't see each other again until the next year, or not ever again -- it's much easier for an individual to feel that an invitation to violate a social norm is an invitation to indulge in excesses of antisocial behavior. Yes, it's a slippery slope argument, but one, I think, that has some weight behind it. And it's why I reluctantly oppose this otherwise potentially useful and enjoyable idea.

[ceilidh]

I really didn't care for his post at all. I felt like a stick in the mud for thinking no one would be touching my boobs but my husband. :P

[mamadeb.livejournal.com]

That's one of my problems. You have every right to decide who touches your body when, and you should not be made to feel like a "prude" or a stick-in-the-mud because you want to love the man whose hands touch you.

[hannahsarah.livejournal.com]

There is a reason why I invented this:

http://www.etsy.com/view_transaction.php?transaction_id=8134541

[rosehiptea.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I saw this over at feminist and I was pretty disappointed. No matter how you slice it is contributing to the idea that women need to opt out of being groped, and that's not OK at all.

[hillarysherwood.livejournal.com]

This is just so totally icky to me. I would just be so grossed out by any strange man who came up and asked to grope me. YUCK!