mamadeb

Trust me, in this case, they won't. I see the objective merits of the thing in question - it *is* actually good and even funny. It's just the general theme of it that offends *me*. It's more I'm feeling extremely alone about it. I get that feeling a lot, and I don't like it.

(And the idea of going to someone else's lj and harshing their bliss over something - no. That's just wrong.).

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I've found that if you say up front "This is irrational", or "this is just me and I'm not trying to convince anyone." And aren't a screaming banshee about it you'll not only find that people will nod and understand and have a reasonable conversation but you might find people that agree.

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Those aren't the phrases I would use.

That's one of the problem. This is about something I regard as wrong and bad, but most people think of as, at worst, neutral. And I can't fault them for thinking that way. (And given the nature of the thing that bothers me, it's not even worth getting worked up about - there's that, too.)

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I figured, I was just using them as examples, in your case I'd probably throw in a bit of "this is where I come from but I can't fault people for not thinking this is more serious/upsetting."

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I've actually often been annoyed that I can't express opinions openly, on trivial and non-trivial stuff. I'm kind of curious what's bothering you, or at least why you're describing your feelings as "not politically correct."

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Major squeeage over something that's basically an ode to intermarriage.

Please understand - I'm not putting down political correctness. I think it's actually an important thing to be considerate of the feelings of others both as groups and as individuals.

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sen-ichi-rei.livejournal.com

Intermarriage is always a tricky subject. I was actually mashgiaching during a conference on intermarriage that was held in the Hillel building, so I overheard a lot of the conversations.

I guess others find it hard to respect a position that they see as discriminating against others. And a lot of people would see being against intermarriage as being discriminatory against non-Jews. Usually I don't say anything, unless I know the people I'm talking to really well and know that they know my general beliefs.

Now I'm curious as to what this "ode to intermarriage" is...

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It's a very cute songvid for Stargate: Atlantis (songvid: a series of clips from a tv series or movie set to a song.) The song is a Jewish man declaring his love for Irish girls, the vid makes it about one of the two male leads for the other. Now, my reaction was for the song itself, not the actual songvid - the first man is, in fact, Canadian of Scottish descent and the second, while not a girl, is, in fact, Irish-American.

It's just the song itself - I know it was meant to be funny, but the guy used words like "shiksa" and the one Jewish woman who appeared slept with his brother and the whole thing hit a big button with me.

(And my reaction gets more and more silly as I write this.)

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vass

Well, shiksa is a hot-button word all on its own, isn't it?

Without having heard the song, I can't say, but I'm guessing it's pro-intermarriage in a way that's actually more like being disrespectful of the singer's own ethnic/religious group?

I think "I think the fanvid is very cute, but I found the song problematic, and here's why" would be a reasonable thing to say.

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Well, that was why I wondered, because I know you're not the type of person to call basic respect "political correctness" in a bad way.

And now I understand better. But... meh, I usually don't comment on anyone's squee if it's not my thing.

Once, once someone posted a picture of a character who had been changed in canon in a way I loathed (he became a sexed-up Nazi, actually) and said "Anyone who doesn't think is sexy is crazy." and I just had to comment that I did NOT think it was sexy at all. Then I deleted my comment in shame. And the person edited it to say "Except

rosehiptea who loves a different version of him."

And I had been doing so well keeping my complete hatred of this plot change to myself, because people were requesting I write about it, and writing it for me, because they apparently didn't know.

That's pretty different from something you don't like for a true ideological reason, but still... it annoyed me to hear all the squee. Though in the end, yeah, I should have kept my mouth shut in my case.

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I usually don't comment on squees like that, either. It's more that I wanted to like this so much and it's so everywhere.

On the other hand - a Nazi? You were fully justified in saying something. That should be offensive to most people.

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It sounds worse than it is, I think... there were always Nazi characters in the fandom, and I thought of them as "interesting characters" and "totally evil" and I didn't have a problem with them existing. There was no actual mention of Jews in canon, either, which is part of why I found it not so so hard to take.

Then one of the good guys, who was pretty much my favorite fictional character, went over to their side, (at first, we thought, unwillingly, but now apparently not entirely) and practially the whole fandom said "What an interesting development! And he looks so cool as a young vampire!" and I said "The hell."

So it's not a case of Nazi sympathies, which yeah, would of course be offensive.

Fortunately there's another version of canon which everyone hates where that didn't happen.

Gosh that got long. Sorry about that.

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valarltd.livejournal.com

To some of us, it NEVER occurs that this is a problem.

I just finished writing one that's very interfaith. I came up in a place where it wasn't a big deal. There were usually a couple squabbles about how to spend the holidays, but after that, the couples went about their lives.

Then again, the folks I know have "been Jewish" in the same way the folks I know have "been Christian." Culturally, with a few nods to the religious side of it. For them, learning Hebrew was the same as my Catholic friends taking Catechism classes: expected and promptly forgotten after the ritual at the end.

Thanks for the heads-up. It never even occured to me.

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It's one of those things that have fallen away.

I think part of it is media influence. Most of the Jewish characters on television are involved with non-Jews. I'd almost support Wilson/Cuddy because it would be that rarest of beasts - two Jews together. Except they'd be very bad for each other. Sharing the religion they don't practice isn't enough. :)

It would just be *nice* to see.

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llennhoff.livejournal.com

This is why I joined the protests over "Bridget loves Bernie". Alas, but at least we tried.

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gingicat

FWIW, I think it's unlikely that you could actually offend me, unless you said that I was a morally wrong person for squeeing over said thing.

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The squeeage isn't wrong in the first place. And I can see why they like the thing - I really do.

It boils down to religious sensibilities. Which I really don't expect others to respect.

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gingicat

I respect others' religious sensibilities, or try to. It's why I'm not offended when people say to me, "I really don't want to be on any filter where you mention anything I find immodest." For example. And I always put it behind a cut tag just in case.

But then, it's probably good for me not to mention some things just in order to maintain boundaries, too.

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The deeper I get into this, the sillier I feel.

I'm mildly offended by something that no one is forcing me to see. (Yes, I do get that). It's not a modesty thing - not in particular, since there's nothing immodest in the thing, and not in general since I can't pretend that modesty is a problem when it comes to slash fiction. Real people stuff is a different story, but this is not real. It's about fictional characters, after all.

And there are things about it that are offensive for different (and non-religious reasons) that I'm not as bothered about. And I also recognize that humor has its own rules.

Of all things to break this particular camel's back, this is about the silliest. But there it is. And everyone is so happy about it, and I'm sitting here feeling offended about "How dare they like this funny, well-made thing that is mildly offending me?" And more, "And I shouldn't say anything about it, because I don't want to offend anyone."

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gingicat

Hon, things happen that way. I had to leave the room when my non-Jewish roommate was watching a cooking show that was a hymn to pork. Have I been able to watch seriously traif episodesof Iron Chef? Well, yeah. I don't know why this was different.

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vass

everyone is so happy about it

Is everyone so happy about it? For sure?

I don't know whether or not they are, I'm posing the question.

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miss-porcupine.livejournal.com

It boils down to religious sensibilities. Which I really don't expect others to respect.

... That shouldn't be the case. Why is "I can't like this thing because intermarriage goes against my religious beliefs" of any less value or less worthy of respect as an opinion than, say, "I can't like this thing because it features a character I don't like" or "because it hits my embarrassment squick" or "because I refuse to read incestfic" or {pick a reason that has nothing to do with faith and just causes a visceral reaction}? Because being against intermarriage is not the multiculti, inclusive, accepted thing to be? So is believing in G-d and you aren't about to start being embarrassed about that, are you?

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I agree, also, I'd bet that some people, because it's NOT a part of their usual thinking would at the very least go "huh. never thought of it like that".

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slippyslope.livejournal.com

Absolutely. Even if I don't agree with someone else's religious sensibilites, I try to be respectful of the fact that they have them.

Given my own experience and mindset, intermarriage would honestly never have registered as something that would be bothersome. Having another voice say, "hey, this isn't a neutral thing" adds nuance & complexity to my own understanding. I'm afraid that sounds like "your discomfort is a learning opportunity for me", which isn't a nice role to be put into, but a well-delivered dissent from the squee can have a lot of value.

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Totally, a well delivered dissent will have me thinking a hell of a lot more than a shrill rant, which is part of why I've started backing away from a lot of online arguments if I see certain indicators/participants. There's a part of me that just wants to not listen/disagree automatically if someone is yelling at me.

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That's another bit. I don't *like* arguments,and I don't want to start one.

I left the old senslash mailing list because of such an argument, where I got more and more shrill in defending my position and ultimately decided that the best thing I could do for everyone would be to quietly unsubscribe.

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You've given me a lot to think about.

I think one of my problems is that I tend to want to make these posts in the heat of the moment, when I *know* I'm too emotional to phrase things properly. And when I cool down enough for that, the moment is gone, and a good thing, too.

But knowing that if I wait a bit and make a reasoned response on my own LJ won't make everyone hate me - that helps. Not this time - I've sabotaged that - but next time.

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I know it's not something that's even an issue in the greater community, although it's huge where I sit. And I don't believe the maker of the songvid meant anything at all by it, except to create a laugh.

I think this is something that's been building in me.

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The difference is, I don't want to hurt people who are actually in that sort of relationship. I have a lot of intermarried friends and relatives, and whatever I feel about the relationships themselves, I care about the people in them. Stating my personal beliefs about Gd can hurt no one.

I'm not shy about other squicks of mine.

But, huh. Yeah. I think there are ways of saying it that, if I hadn't made such a, um, megillah out of it this time, I could have said. Now, not much point. "I think that this particular songvid is funny and well-done. Unfortunately, it hits my intermarriage squick hard, and I had to shut it off before it was over."

But the opportunity will come again.

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mecurtin.livejournal.com

I made my comment below before I saw this comment of yours.

I appreciate seeing this, because I was in fact feeling *extremely* hurt and offended.

I think it's worth bearing in mind how much "politically correct" means "actually paying attention to other people's feelings".

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I'm going to respond to this one, not that one.

As I said earlier, I do think political correctness is a good thing.

However, I'm human. I can have conflicting desires, and since it often seems that traditional religious beliefs are fair game, even though everyone has people with those beliefs on their friendslists (at least *one* :)), it feels like political correctness applies to everyone else sometimes.

And I usually just seethe to myself and say nothing, but it builds and it's often a silly thing that will be too much. And then I still can't say anything. So, it's frustrating.

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What I'm afraid to say is that in the end I couldn't reconcile my religious beliefs with being "politically correct" (in a good way) and that's a large part of why I left. I felt like I had to stay away from a lot of things (anything gay-themed, for example) because it would make me want to accept something I wasn't supposed to, and in the end I couldn't take it anymore.

Sorry, now I'm making this about me, and I don't mean to. I'm just tired after work.

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It depends on the community. I'm part of the Modern Orthodox community, where thinking about the point of view of others is very, very important. You were in a different one with different priorities.

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I used to know a (more) modern rabbi, when I first converted, but he still wasn't like that. A great guy, but he felt a lot of things including gay issues were not debatable. In fact, I've never met a rabbi who did think that.

So it wasn't like it would have been easy for me to just find a community like that.

I'm sorry, I know you're not calling me on this. I'm just having trouble with it and expressing it here, which may not really be appropriate.

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